Is there any Quranic evidence that the book we know as the Quran has been the same “al-kitab” throughout history? I think I read a verse saying it has always been, but I can’t find it. I think that the verse I blogged about is pretty strong evidence. (35:43)
Ok, got it
35:43 their arrogant behaviour on earth, and their devising of evil [arguments against God’s messages].34 Yet [in the end,] such evil scheming will engulf none but its authors: and can they expect anything but [to be made to go] the way of those [sinners] of olden times? Thus [it is]: no change wilt thou ever find in God’s way; yea, no deviation wilt thou ever find in God’s way! (Assad)
Way=sunna. Idon’t really doubt that al kitab has been the same throughout time. I’m doing some reading on it at the moment
I’d love to hear your thoughts, because it’s my current belief that we can only be given a reminder if we already know something and I think it’s something some of us do inherently know. That reminds me of my view on “hijab” and Maryam. She utilized hijab to protect herself from outside influences and therefore she got her deen from God as he breathed it into her (rooh). “None can understand it save the purified.” Let me get another verse that I think might support this. Yes, here it is. 30:30, http://corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp?chapter=30&verse=30#(30:30:1).
Farouk said something really interesting in one of the groups, something along the lines of a person being a muslim at any one time that they have decided to do something for the betterment of themselves and others. I’ll have to ask him to explain it- I can’t remember which thread it was on.
I mentioned the same thing in a thread
It has to do with decisions. Anything we do in life is essentially a decision that is made. So when we have a decision to make, we must ask ourselves the question: “Will my decision bring about safety, security and freedom for myself and those around me or not?” If we choose to act on the option that brings this about, then we are muslim in that instance.
Brilliant. I loved what you said about speeding today.
It reminded me to slooow down when I drive – stop being so aggressive. Helps having an ‘agressive driving cert’
Those who respond to their higher self and establish their life’s purpose, and their affairs are in consideration of those among them, and what they have been given (gifts, talents, blessings) they put to good use, when afflicts them the self-serving (greed, tyranny, injustice), they help themselves. Recompense a harm with a similar harm. But whoever pardons and makes reconciliation, then his reward is upon God. Indeed, He does not like the wrongdoers. This is MARISA.YAY!
If I can add: “If your decision aligns itself with the will of Allah – then you are in essence submitting to that Will therefore in that moment you are doing a ‘muslim act’. and therefore can be defined as muslim at that moment/for that decision”
So we have to remind ourselves of Allah, of His Will and align. When our decisions are in this state of alignment progress happens – the stream only flows one way… DARCSIN IS GREEN ok SKY BLUE/GREEN It’s cyan to be exact.yeah yeah. What color is 255, 255, 255? 😛ur hand.“normal”.shuddap. Where Im from – IM normal! Hey, I’m middle-eastern/asian too!do u have any ‘asian’ in you? no but i want some!naughty (padded thai?)
HOw do I figure out who’s who with these colours?
Kryslte, are you pink? I’m yellow.WHO is yeller? Ok got it. Imraan.
Thanks for the compliment Krystle?LOL Mar, I mean I’m not yellow OR yeller bellied! Sorry Imraan
I’m a lighter pink than Imraan. Imraan is yellow. Marisa is red.
In regards to ‘none can approach it save the purified’ (56:79) I think its to do with those purified of thought – emptied of preconceptions and the gods we set up in our lives – this is ONE of the steps to walking the “straight path that reveals and evolves you in stages”
Which verse is that again Yasin?.
56:79 This is a Book that none but the pure of mind can grasp.
I think that it would be more accurate to say those who effect purity than the purified ones.agree – to effect purity is to go through or be going through the process… i c. The Quran is a book of signs (ayat) and you will only understand all the signs once you are 100% purified. That is not to say that you will not understand individual signs corresponding with your stage of purification+spiritual development/connection.
Salaat helps one to put the purification into practice, reason why salat and zakat mentioned together so often? no? yes!
Well, I am finally going to present my salat research at this year’s conference in South Africa and the Quran and qara’a forms an important part of the presentation. I have found that the basic meaning of qara’a and hence Quran is not what we have been taught. The basic meaning is about bringing together component parts in a protected environment in order for it to develop stage by stage until it is ready to function in the way it is meant to.I like this. So you mean the ‘revelation’ in stages is to be done in an environ of safety and then to put it into practice no? These groups online help in our little ‘submit with those who submit’ thing…
Just getting a link. The only reason qara’a is acceptable as reciting is because when we recite, we bring together the letters and sounds in the protected environment of our bodies and allow them to develop into a comprehensible form for delivery.please elaborate – when you said this it reminded me of the time when the wife and I used to read the Quran to our son when he was in the womb…and how he reacted to it…
Check out the first enries for ق ر أ here: http://www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume7/00000030.pdf
whats this fascinatino for she camels?
The fascination with camels has brought about the opinion that the arabs have thousands of words that mean camel, but this is not really true. They described camels in various ways because of the characterictics a particular camel demostrated so the various “names” for camels can be traced back to the root which describes that characteristic.
So assigning the meaning of recite and reacital to ق ر أ and Quran is a very limited approach. It is dependant on what ق ر أ means. ق ر أ is not dependant on what recital means. If that makes any sense.
GO ON DUDE
People always use that argument when I talk about exploring roots. That because there are so many words for ‘camel’, it can’t be a good idea to look into the roots. I thought there is only one word for camel? Hi Yesar. hello There is now! lol It always had me stumped, but Imraan has just explained it brilliantly. That’s one of the reasons why I wanted to do a study based on the common English translation concept. For example, “evil”, or “sin”.
I was just going to ask why everyone else is so quiet?
Me quiet? lol.
I think the sunnis have the qirat aspect down in the simplest sense. My son is learning pronunciation – corrects me and his aunty maha AKA Marisa too (maha’s pronunciation is almost perfect albeit with her crazy smooth accent) Also, the sound of the words – when ur reading a few verses which rhyme – they really have an effect – even if you dont understand the words – which then makes you ask “I wonder what it says” – this was my response as a child.
Sufi zikr – can at times consist of sounding out words in praise of Allah. Now, when you internalise those sounds and bring them together in yourself, they can have a profound effect. When you do that AND you understand what the sounds actually mean – they delve deeper, they can shake the foundations of your very being.
I should be in London tonight!…alas its not meant to be… there is a big sufi gathering on in Pekham mosque tonight.. my old sufi groups
Marisa, one of the things I’m coming to realise is that the root may not be a simple verb, but rather a process made up of a number of actions, like in the way I’ve defined ق ر أ. That’s great. Have you seen my thoughts on JBR?https://blissonature.wordpress.com/2011/08/26/jibrilgabrielurgeimpulseinstinct-2/
There are some great examples in quran of this process of ق ر أ. One is surah alaq. Another is muzzammil. please elaborate…im feelin lazy after my ooooooodon
Here are some of my notes from a Jummah talk I gave at a mosque. Sorry about the CAPS.
IN SURAH ALAQ, WE FIND THAT IT STARTS WITH THE INSTRUCTION “IQRA”.
IS THIS SURAH TELLING US MORE THAN TO JUST RECITE OR EVEN READ?
1. proclaim! (or read!) In the name of Thy Lord and Cherisher, who created-
WE ARE TOLD TO “IQRA” WITH THE ONE OF ALLAH’S DISTINGUISHING CHARACTERISTICS OF BEING ONE WHO CREATED, WHERE THE TERM جَلَق IS USED. THIS DOESN’T JUST MEAN TO CREATE, BUT TO CREATE BY DETERMINING THE MEASURE OR PROPORTION ACCURATELY. THIS RE ENFORCES THE CONCEPT OF QARA’A UNDER DISCUSSION.
THE VERY NEXT VERSE MAKES IT EVEN CLEARER AS IT GIVES US A MORE SPECIFIC POINT TO CONSIDER
2. created man, out of a (mere) clot of congealed Blood:
THIS POINTS US TOWARDS THE PRIMARY MEANING OF QARA’A BEING RELATED TO THE CONCEPT OF CONCEPTION ALL THE WAY THROUGH TO DELIVERY OF A HEALTHY BABY.
3. proclaim! and Thy Lord is Most Bountiful,-
4. He who taught (the use of) the pen,-
5. taught man that which He knew not.
AGAIN, WE ARE INSTRUCTED TO “IQRA” AND REMINDED OF THE BOUNTEOUS NATURE OF OUR RABB OR NOURISHER WHO TAUGHT US WHAT WE DID NOT KNOW THROUGH THE USE OF THE PEN.
THE SURAH THEN GOES ON TO SPEAK OF THOSE WHO DO NOT FOLLOW THIS INSTRUCTION OF “IQRA”, GIVING US A BETTER IDEA OF WHAT WE MUST AVOID IN ORDER TO FULFILL THIS INSTRUCTION OF “IQRA”.
FINALLY, WE ARE TOLD
19. Nay, heed Him not: but bow down In adoration, and bring Thyself the closer (to Allah.!
THE INSTRUCTION HERE IS TO ACKNOWLEDGE AND SUBMIT TO THE CALL FOR “IQRA” IN ORDER TO DRAW NEAR.
THIS SURAH IS VERY EFFECTIVE IN GIVING US THE INSTRUCTION WE NEED TO FOLLOW IN ORDER TO ACHIEVE SUCCESS, AND THAT INSTRUCTION IS “IQRA” OR “DRAW TOGETHER ALL THE NECESSARY COMPONENTS FOR ESTABLISHING THE TRUTH AND DEVELOP THEM IN TO A PRODUCTIVE WHOLE, SO THAT YOU HAVE A FULLY OPERATIONAL SYSTEM CAPABLE OF ACHIEVING THE LOFTY GOALS SET OUT IN QURAN.
I take it as to ’embody’ it. Yasin wrote a great article on Q R A
Sure, that covers one component of it, but like I said it seems to describe a more comprehensive process. I’d love to read that article, Yasin.check darcust.wordpress.com
Study of Qaf – Ra – Alif
96:0 In the name of God, the Almighty, the Merciful.
96:1 Read in the name of your Lord who has created.
96:2 He created man from an embryo.
96:3 Read, and your Lord is the Generous One.
96:4 The One who taught by the pen.
96:5 He taught man what he did not know.
Here we have an interesting aspect of verse bracketing. A concept (96:2) is mentioned between two commands to READ, or more specifically IQRA. I understand 96:2 as being the realisation of one’s humanity by adhering or attaching oneself to what we are told to iqra. This is further expounded in the following verses in that to iqra is to be taught by the pen (so something you read) and it is something you didnt know.
96:6-7 Tells us that we mustn’t stop IQRA just because we have achieved something – we have to continually strive
96:10 the prohibition is for salla – for connecting with people, how? Look at 96:12 – which is righteousness.
96:15-16 – the forelock (nasiyatin – Nun-Saad-Ya/Waw 11:56/55:41/96:15-16) refers to the part of the brain which has conciousness – mastery over oneself.
96:19 submit in order to come near to God.
The mention of salla in this verse and how one should not be stopped from doing it – is important. We have to work righteousness even though there will be people trying to stop us – these works of righteousness help us to align ourselves with the Will of Allah and we become ‘created’ as man. It is the rise from the animal selfishness to being human and concious of making contact with other people in order to do good.
The question then comes, what are we told to IQRA? My take on these verses:
96:0 In the name of God, the Almighty, the Merciful.
96:1 Read whilst being mindful of the attributes of your Lord to act according to that nature
96:2 Which We originated as a model for mankind by adherance to what we Read
96:3 Read to realise the attributes that will make you productive
What to Read? Well there are a few things which we can read:
1. The Quran of course
2. The attributes of God and their human equivalents in people we connect to
3. The results of our work/lives
17:14 Read your record! It is sufficient for you that you are aware of yourself today.
THIS verse is amazing. Directly after it the matter for record which you are told to read/discern is mentioned – that is whether or not you were guided. What is the result of this guidance? Well its simple, we guide for ourselves – or we misguide ourselves – which puts to bed the usual argument – does God guide and misguide? Not at all, we do it ourselves. Compare this with 96:11 where it talks about guidance.
It is reading the results of our lives, sitting down at the end of the day and sorting through one’s thoughts, identifying if we have tried to actualise any of the divine attributes in our lives or have we lived like animals, automatic beings driven by impulse? Did we behave like humans? An important question, to find more lessons.
17:14 and 69:19-20 show us about this record which we examine or allow to be read. Do our lives read like the Quran, and the attributes of the Almighty or do they read like other parts of the Quran when they mention Pharoah or the mushrikeen or the kafiroon?
73:20 -Here we are told to read what is easy/a little/what we can of the Quran as God knows that we will be occupied or ill. Again righteousness is mentioned – the command to connect and purify to do righteousness…
16:97-99 Here we are told to do good works and read the Quran so that we can seek refuge IN Allah – so that we are not like Shaitan the displaced… i.e. READ in order to put your mind in the right place – with God. Stay God Concious.
We read the Quran and apply the lessons to our life. We can read the effects of following the guidance or not, so we can choose to become more human by integrating the Divine Attributes. The salaat, the connection we have by working righteousness, by fighting oppression, by doing good deeds reflects in our lives and others. So, when we read our record at the end of the day and we choose to PLAN our days by writing it in our record in the morning (two times for salaat) we are deciding to be God concious and plan for guidance and adherance to the Word.
The writing was inspired by M…. glorious M. Its not finished, but you get the gist.
Oh yes, I read this on QuranRoots. It’s great. I like it.
Another example is muzzammil where there have been gross mistranslations in my opinion. Al Muzzammil is not one wrapped up the way I see it. ز م ل means to counterbalance, so if you load a horse or camel, you ensure that the load is balanced. Or two riders on a camel sittting in such a way so as to counterbalance each other.Muzzammil is one who effects such balanace. HAve you seen Shabbir’s trans of 73? As in ‘selector of companions’
I haven’t relly looked at his, but I have seen Parwez’s, from which Shabbir Ahmed has got most of his work. It sounds similar. It makes sense because the chapter really is about selecting companions in such a way as to have that balance and counter balance. When you look at terms in the chapter like “rattala tarteela”, it is about balanced and equitable arrangement.
So you dont equate that to what one would do with the verses of the Quran? Well the verses/signs do accompany us in our lives if we integrate them into our lives no?
WHERE HAVE THE GOOD WOMEN GONE? I am here!I’m heregood.
I see it as arranging the companions in a balanced and equitable way utilising their respective capabilities in concert with how Quran can be seen in light of how I described ق ر أ above. Its about bringing an equitable society into effect stage by stage utilising the various capabilities of those involved in achieving this.
Yes, I see what you mean. There are many verses that I read in a personal and social sense at the same time. It’s something that I really want to research one day, God willing, the multiple meaning verses. I take them on a completely different meaning to some others. Those who say I take them the way I do to make it easy. I think I make things a lot harder for myself with my personal understanding of them. I think it easy to find a ritual in them and go with that. That’s my opinion.
You’re referring to mutashabihat? I think so!The firm verses we shouldnt really differe on, but your and my experiences will color your understanding
That’s an interesting one. I don’t see it as meaning “allegorical”. 3:7 says there are muhkamat and mutashabihat verses.That is the verse that is often thrown at me, yes.
Muhkamat refers to those verses which are firm in the sense that they establish limits. I don’t think we can refer to a single verse as mutashabihat because the form dictates that there should be at least two verses that are being compared in my understanding.
yes – this is where the verse pairing comes in handy… you use verse pairing and bracketing to elucidate a meaning appropriate to your understanding. sorry – i was speaking outloud to someone about a website! lolan example of being unable to multi-task
Maybe I can use an example to demonstrate what I mean. Just a sec.K Thanks
In 3:130, we are advised against riba, but it is qualified as being compounded. In 2:275, we are told that riba is haram without any qualification. This could appear to be an inconsistency. My understanding on this is that the quran addresses various stages of evolution within the lives of communities and individuals. So if a community is steeped in the practice of riba, it is not possible to remove it suddenly. There is a step by step process that would allow for different applications under different conditions.
In relation to mutashabihat, these are two verses that are connected my a common thread, being riba. Those who are intent on maintaining riba would dwell on the compounded aspect without attempting to work towards its eradication. Does this make any sense? SORTA Hmm
There are other examples as well. It even comes into play very much in the concept of salat.I was watching aprogram about buddhism and it was very appealing – the concept that it is YOU who control your destiny/future etc… and the interplay between the individual and the role they play in their society helps or hinders that society – so the concept of karma (consequence of actions) is very important and IS salaat in my opinion Karma is salaat? karma is not salaat…it is one of the attitudes to adopt to achieving peace…I gotchacool
PRAISE ALLAH!!! May His Name be Glorified and Magnified! ❤ I think that’s what I was getting at. If you take salat to mean prayer, that is easier than taking it to mean something much greater, but because I don’t consider it be prayer, I’m considered by those who do to be lazy.
One of the problems with the idea of salat being so general is that it is presented within quran as being finite. It has a preparation, a beginning and an end. Those who take salat to be prayer also point out that there are specific times mentioned. The evolutionary nature of concepts in quran explain why students of quran have such trouble with trying to decide “how many” salats there are every day. I think that in the beginning of Muhammad’s mission people were able to give less time to salat than later in his mission. For example, I think that chapter 73 is one of the earliest methods of salat and 17:78 is one of the latest methods and times prescribed for salat.
Chapter 73 gives the night, others give various points in time, while 17:78 gives a span of time. It may not refer to time, but it doesn’t affect looking at it this way.
I dont think that there are a finite number of ‘salats’ in a day – it is between the dawn and night… so why not the WHOLE day… ?Exactly
17:78 Hold the contact prayer at the zenith of the sun, until the darkening of the night; and the Qur’an at dawn; the Qur’an at dawn is witnessed. Interesting. So, the only break we get is when Allah takes the nafs in our sleep… yes…
That does make sense, Imraan, because we have the verse that gives instructions on what we need to do in preparation for salaat (the “wudhu” verse).
So who doesnt clean themselves in the morning?ala wudu…I shower every morning if that makes a difference. This is not about bathing. At least not ONLY about bathing.OI F COURSE….. its one of the things… when dooing wudhu (ritually) I feel calm and ready to mentally tackle stuff) – my experience only… SORRY – do go on… I see wudhu as a spiritual aspect myself. mental/spiritual prep – that too. the thing is that we cant just look at the quran in one dimension… our application is deeper…
I think its about extended periods and not specific 10 minute intervals or something…during the twilights…
What is interesting about the body parts mentioned in the wudu (if you take it to mean that) is that in reflexology, the hands, face, head and feet each have points that are used to treat the entire body. yes!TRUE. the chakras at the ends of our extremities and our heads/faces etc are INlets and OUTlets for energy…use them to take in positive PURIFYing energy (with clean water if you must) the ground/earth is where the energy grounds you… so when u can do ‘dry ablution’ it is with that in mind…wudu is not just a ritual, just like salat is not just a ritual.
We do tend to get very intellectual about the quran and not actually think with our hearts… the quran helps us to put our heart into action – soften it so to speak (not physically of course, that would be stoopid, duh)
I’m really considering the verses on wudu to be about preparing for salat in the sense that those who are going to be involved in a particular must be knowlegable about the subject matter to be discussed so whatabout those who are not yet knowledgeable or those who have no knowledge – are they excluded?
In a sense, yes. My understanding of salat is that in a developed commuinty, there would be various salats going on at the same time. People would attend and contribute to the salat that they are knowledgeable about in terms of its purpose.
OK. lets try something if you’re ALL game? go on
Give in the briefest possible words – your understanding of salat. I will go first of course:
It is the means with which one connects to the creation and thus the creator. Serve creation to serve creator. You nailed it. Serve the creation and thus serve God. I don’t see it as something that will only benefit myself personally. What you give out you will get back, BUT you don’t give to receive.i like – i hate the ‘sawaab system’ of bow like this and u get 70k sawabs. I used to think it was like a computer game, you get the high score u get a new life in heaven (as a kid!) Ha ha it’s actually some fellow ‘quranists’ who do my head in with this one
I see it as making productive use of the quran in all aspects of our lives in order to establish islam and imaan.cool
Involve yourself with the world around you by making use of the the gifts, talents, skills, blessings, knowledge that has been bestowed upon you. Give back to the world so that you can live a life worth living and die without remorse. Remember that even the birds know their salaat.❤ I LIKE.
this is fun. I see it as trying to establish a following in a community sense and trying to follow gods laws by following the quran. Aqumu al salat literally means maintain the following. In my opinion.
One of the things worth noting is that we are never told to establish or make salat “to” God. but FOR God…YES!yes
The basic meaning of the root of salat is to make contact, but salat itself seems to come from the second form so it is about effecting this contact or one couold say “turning towards”. This turning towards is not always used as turning towards the quran. An example is 9:5. In 9:5, it refers to turning towards the treaty that has been violated.yeah so you turn towards the community – and bring them in line… help them to see what is right. show them what you have learnt and help them remember.
Hey where did everyone go…
I was wondering the same thing.
maybe im too boring
What do you think about 9:5. dejavu! My post is just below this.
Actually, I think that the subject of 9:5 are mushriks and refers to them turning towards the original treaty. If not taken this way, it would violate the verses that speak of no compulsion in the deen.gimme a min
you – help these guys understand the agreement. I dont believe it gives the standard KILL meaning for violators of the treaty. Also, the treaty is not necessarily an aspect of deen… more one of political necessity But the condition is that THEY establish the salat, not you.go on.. i wanna hear more…
If they are required to establish the salat and bring forth the zakat, they are in fact been forced to do this or suffer the consequences. So if we understand this as referring to salat in the sense that a mu’min is required to, we are violating their right to freedom of deen. The object of a salat is very important. The object is not included in the definition of salat on its own. The object of salat is dictated by the context. YES For a mu’min, the object of the salat (or what must be turned towards) is the Quran. Here, the context dictates that the mushrik must turn towards the original terms of the agreement which will in turn contribute to the growth and development of the community at large (zakat). this community is made up of mu’mins and mushriks. So, what is qiblah?
I think qiblah is putting something before one’s self as an indication of acceptance. This is why we are to incline towards (ruku) and submit to (sujood) the position of quran regardless of our personal inclinations. These two together result in accepting and “facing” the position of quran on a matter.
The difference between mu’min and muslim: A muslim has accepted that the message the prophet brings is the truth (Yeah, OK, fine. You’re right). A mu’min recognizes and is conscientious of the impact of the message and implements it in accordance with the instruction. A bit like how it’s easy to say “God is omniscient”, but to be conscientious of that fact and act in accordance with it is another thing altogether.good
The muslim for me is one who effects safety, security and freedom, whereas the mu’min is one who effects safety, security and tranquility. The key difference being freedom on the one hand, and tranquility on the other.
So what am I? a Muslim or a mumin?
A muslim ensures that the environment allows for the freedom of all to contribute to this process. A mu’min ensures that the environment allows for the tranquility of all in being able to live with the peace of mind that all members of the community are taken care of. Just a working thought at the moment.
ok my take. The mushriks break the treaty. allowance is given to cut them off and surround them and establish salat – communicate and contact the people in order that they may purify themselves of what they have done – this results in honest repentance…But why must they establish salat and bring forth the zakat? because it is through mutual consultation and discussion with the people will they understand what the treaty entailed – and then they can purify themselves of the reasons as to why they rejected the treaty could be, yes. i’ll have to consider that. Well, it benefits all and doesn’t allow for an ‘under-class’ to form with everyone involved Aah, a fellow socialist. Erm, yeah? lol Great. With everyone involved in the system, none can feel that it is against them- that’s my takeThese takes are interesting. I just need to check how it fits with the language used in this passage, but thanks for all the insights on this.